Who Visits Creationist Museums?

14 06 2009

An interesting article from BBC news that looks at the fundamentalists who visit the creationist museum in this anniversary year of Darwinian Evolution. 

According to one Robert Mailloux, visiting from Colorado Springs, Darwin’s theory of evolution is “not even a low grade hypothesis” and he insists that it has “no substantial science” in it.  Of course he goes on to explain his rock solid, proof positive, basis for real science.  “The Bible says God created the Earth in six days and we flat believe that.”

Wow, with brilliant logic like that and a museum full of propagand that gets 700,000 visitors in just two years it’s no wonder the rest of the world thinks we are a bunch of morons.

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65 responses

15 06 2009
Chris

It’s not a surprise. Those are the same people that have no problem believing Koalas and Pandas can carry enough food for a trip to the Middle East, 40 days at sea, and a return trip to Asia/Pacific.
Nor do they question what the lions and tigers and leopards ate after landfall.
Wasn’t there only two of each of their prey alive?

15 06 2009
MirrorMan

I see that Jesus is using a Western Bridle for the Raptor, which makes sense because Europe hadn’t been discovered yet.

Wait a minute! Maybe the fundies discovered a typo in the bible! They aren’t waiting for the Rapture! They’re waiting for the RAPTORS!

Yes, Jesus is coming back, and he’s bringing Jurassic Park with him!

15 06 2009
Chris

Well, he can leave Armageddon and Last Days back in the vault.

17 06 2009
jlue

If you are able to answer all the questions here and those on the link given, I will have a great deal more respect for your opinion.

We have all learned that photosynthesis is a process used by plants whereby energy from the sun is used to produce sugar or food.

Can you explain the origin of photosynthesis, both when and how it developed? What was the earth’s atmosphere like before photosynthesis? How was life supported then? How do you know that this developed without the aid of a higher power? Has the temperature and atmosphere of the earth been consistent for billions of years or did life at some point have to begin again due to a change in temperature or some other cataclysmic event? How likely is it that earth’s atmosphere and temperature remained constant for the billions of years that would be needed for life to have evolved to what we have on earth?

Could you tell how the stars, moon, and sun were hung in space without which evolution could not occur? Did this happen at the “Big Bang” and if not, when and how?

Where did matter come from?

Could you explain why there are still microscopic animals with complex systems that have never evolved and why? If organisms evolved into different species, would there not be a need for many, many missing links?

How do you explain music, art, love, faith, compassion, and other human traits?

Along with my questions, there are others who would like to know many things. Some questions are found here:

http://contenderministries.org/evolution/questions.php

The link is not to my web-site. I just found the site while searching.

17 06 2009
Chris

Most of these questions can be answered in a standard High School Science class.
The earth has not had a consistent temperature. For a large percentage of Earth’s history, there was no life. Only recently in the grand scheme of things has life evolved here.
Planets formed through gravity over millions of years. This is all basic stuff, mind you.
Simple systems don’t evolve because there was no need for it. Evolution happens on a daily basis, but certain species may be perfectly suited for an environment and therefore no need to evolve, such as the shark.
“Missing Links” occur because fossilization is a rare and complex event and to assume there should be a fossil for every species that ever existed is juvenile and ignorant.
As for answers to questions like “where does compassion and art come from” you’ll need to attend a basic Anthropology course.
Questions we have no answer for regarding when and where and how life first came to be, we have scientists looking into and examining those very questions. To assume there must have been a higher power involved is to say there must be a higher power behind rainbows and lightning. 2000 years ago, we assumed God did it. Now we know better.

17 06 2009
SuperJesus

While Chris has been remarkably patient responding to your pile of unrelated and irrelevant questions I’m not sure why I would need to answer them when evolution is the topic at hand. Just because we as humans don’t understand everything has no bearing on the things we do understand. Besides, it’s not my opinion that really matters here but the informed opinion of people who methodically study such thing using the scientific method. I won’t bore you with an explanation here but, if you’re genuinely interested in understanding a little more, I would encourage you to watch the video I posted here (https://thesuperjesus.wordpress.com/2009/02/21/evolution-101)

Regards,
Super J.

17 06 2009
MirrorMan

jlue, posing questions that we do not yet have the hard scientific evidence for in way way makes me have any respect for your position. Saying ‘It must be a higher power’ and taking that as evidence is a weak-minded, lazy response. But, coming from someone who publishes a link to the claptrap I just looked at when I clicked that link, I am not surprised. Enjoy your Raptors..er, rapture, when it hits you.

17 06 2009
jlue

Chris,
You are doing the exact thing that most evolutionist do. When confronted with facts or difficult questions, you resort to insults to avoid the subject. Why do you do this? I am not making any claims, just asking questions.
Jlue

17 06 2009
MirrorMan

jlue, if you would pull your head out of your fairy tale book…I mean, bible…you would see I am not Chris.

17 06 2009
jlue

Sorry, Mirrorman. Still, I wonder why you are so hostile. Why do you care what I believe? Why does questioning evolution make some people so angry?

17 06 2009
Chris

I think it’s because most of these hard hitting questions you pose can be answered with a little self-guided reading and a small amount of intellectual curiosity.
Creationists always come and ask these questions they think will stump “evolutionists,” but their questions come generally from ignorance or misinformation from creationist websites.

17 06 2009
jlue

Actually, I have done a great deal of research. These questions have not been answered satisfactorily. Some haven’t been answered at all because no one actually knows. With so many unknowns, I find it difficult to understand how or even why some people have become so fixed on the evolution story.

17 06 2009
Chris

re: why people have become so fixed on the evolution story

Because there are facts that scientists have spent their entire lives either finding evidence to prove or disprove evolution. The only unknowns are the ones Creationists refuse to observe for themselves.
I explained the reason we still have simple organisms today. I pointed you towards explanations for the origins of compassion, music and art. I am dissappointed that you don’t find these satisfactory.
Life on land occured after the Earth cooled and oxygen became prevalent in the atmosphere. Before that, the earth was hot and barren. How do we know this? Evidence in the ground beneath us. I am no geologist, but I am smart enough to know someone who spent their entire careers studying and investigating these questions would be the person you should ask about determining the age and characteristics of rocks.

“So many unknowns” is disingenuous. I’ll give you an example:
Last night there was a lot of loud noises. This morning, there was water on the ground, in the trees and on my roof. There were puddles that formed on my sidewalk. Now, we can gather all our evidence, analyze it and say, “Even though we didn’t witness the event, with the evidence we collected, we can safely say it rained last night” or we can say, “Since this happened last night and no one was around to see it, God must have cried.” You choose.

17 06 2009
jlue

One other thing, I did not get the questions from a web-site. I wrote them as honest questions that I feel need to be answered. I am a Christian who wants to know exactly what information being taught is accurate and what isn’t. I do not want to be ignorant and in fact the Bible teaches that we are not to remain ignorant. I read articles from both sides of the evolution/creation debate. I do not think this should be considered an “I win, you lose” battle. Our goal should be to arrive at truth.

17 06 2009
Chris

“I am a Christian who wants to know exactly what information being taught is accurate and what isn’t. I do not want to be ignorant and in fact the Bible teaches that we are not to remain ignorant.”

And yet, the Bible teaches us the sky is merely a dome with little lights sprinked in it, the moon is a light, Noah’s grandchildren somehow created the entire human race (presumably incestuously since the Bible is adamant in stating no one but Noah’s decendants were left alive) and rabbits chew their cud.
What information is accurate, here?

17 06 2009
jlue

Chris,
The real truth is that all the information in the Bible is accurate and regardless of how you personally interpret it or misquote it. The Bible has withstood much criticism and efforts to destroy it and will continue to stand the test of time. (One thing you should know, Noah did not create anything.) As for it being a fairy tale, if people who dislike the idea of God believed that, they would not object to it being read in public schools or ban it from public school libraries. Fairy tales do not contain biographies and history with names, dates, places and events recorded and many verified. Fairy tales do not contain a set of commandments that have remained relevant for over 4,000 years and on which societies have been established. The reading of fairy tales cannot change people’s lives or introduce Someone who is able to change the heart, mind, and actions of mankind. Fairy tales do not contain prophecies that have been fulfilled.

The questions that I asked seem very relevant to me and many others. I would think that before you dismiss the idea of a Creator, you too would consider not only the questions, but the answers scientist have given.

Here is something I wrote concerning science and faith. You will probably disagree with most of this, but I think it is worth your consideration.
http://jlue.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/1272/

The only thing that really matters in life is how you answer the question, “What will you do with Jesus?” The answer you give has eternal implications. Jesus Christ changed my heart, my mind, and my life when I trusted Him.

Have you read Phillip Yancey’s book, “What’s So Amazing About Grace” or any of Max Lucado’s work?

17 06 2009
SuperJesus

You really should back up your claim that Chris interpreted or misquoted the Bible incorrectly, otherwise you’re just making unsubstantiated claims.

And are you really claiming to not comprehend that Chris is pointing out that per the great flood story it only stands to reason that the entire human race had to be repopulated through the incestuous reproduction of Noah’s family?

I would address the rest of your comment but it is simply incoherent and shows an active contempt for rational thought. As for “What will I do with Jesus?” I will regard him as just another interesting character in a very old and poorly written piece of fiction.

18 06 2009
Jlue

Just as no one on this site saw fit to answer questions concerning evolution, I see no reason to answer you. Answers are available for anyone who is interested. Certainly there are passages that are difficult and hard to understand. How could a book be written about God that would be easy for a limited human to grasp?

There are many, not only books, but websites that do Bible commentary. A Scofield study Bible is a good place to begin if you have already read the Bible through one time. If you have never read the Bible, you might be interested in reading The Amplified Bible or a Bible that has both the King James translation alongside another translation for comparison. J Vernon McGee has written a series called “Through The Bible” that I recommend. Also, Warren Wiersbe, William Barclay, and John MacArthur have commentaries that are good. Phillip Yancey has written many books that are not commentaries, but they helpful to understanding God’s plan for his people. There is a book called “Evidence That Demands A Verdict” by Josh McDowell that is interesting. C.S. Lewis’ works might be of interest to you.

The book that you call “poorly written” is actually well written and it has withstood the test of time. It was written over a 1500 year span (from 1400 B.C to A.D. 100) and contains the same theme throughout. From Genesis to Revelation, the Bible teaches how God intervenes in the lives of men and His plan to reclaim His creation. The Bible is helpful to all people in all of life’s circumstances. Many will refuse it, however, that will not change a single word or truth found there.

I am sorry if my intrusion here made you angry. I certainly did not intend to do that. It seems to me that we all should be able and willing to listen to one another with an open mind.

18 06 2009
SuperJesus

Further up I did attempt to direct you to a short video that answers most all of your questions about evolution. I would still encourage you to watch that video here for answers to your questions.

https://thesuperjesus.wordpress.com/2009/02/21/evolution-101

As for the other questions you asked there are some that we just don’t know yet. But just because we as humans don’t understand everything has no bearing on the things we do understand.

I do not pretend to be able to prove that there is no God. I equally cannot prove that Satan is a fiction. The Christian God may exist; so may the Gods of Olympus, or of ancient Egypt, or of Babylon. But no one of these hypotheses is more probable than any other: they lie outside the region of even probable knowledge, and therefore there is no reason to consider any of them more valid than another.

18 06 2009
Chris

“The real truth is that all the information in the Bible is accurate and regardless of how you personally interpret it or misquote it.”

16 And God made the two great lights, the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night; he made the stars also.

not an interpretation nor a misquote.

17 For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life from under heaven; everything that is on the earth shall die. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you; and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you.

4 For in seven days I will send rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living thing that I have made I will blot out from the face of the ground.

12 And rain fell upon the earth forty days and forty nights. 13 On the very same day Noah and his sons, Shem and Ham and Japheth, and Noah’s wife and the three wives of his sons with them entered the ark

21 And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, birds, cattle, beasts, all swarming creatures that swarm upon the earth, and every man; 22 everything on the dry land in whose nostrils was the breath of life died. 23 He blotted out every living thing that was upon the face of the ground, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the air; they were blotted out from the earth. Only Noah was left, and those that were with him in the ark.

Once again, not a misquote or misinterpreted. So if only Noah and his kin were left, who did Noah’s grandchildren breed with?

18 06 2009
Chris

“Fairy tales do not contain a set of commandments that have remained relevant for over 4,000 years and on which societies have been established.”

Historically speaking, more societies have been based on Hammurabi’s Code than the Bible.

18 06 2009
Chris

“Just as no one on this site saw fit to answer questions concerning evolution, I see no reason to answer you.”

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

18 06 2009
jlue

Chris,
I thank you for your answer. You have been kind and thoughtful and you are right that we are unable to prove scientifically that there is a God. There are many evidences, but yet it is by faith that we are called to live and to believe.

In the Gospel of John, we are told that “(1:1-2)In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, He was with God in the beginning….14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

In this passage, John is speaking of Christ when he says, the Word. John was a first hand witness. He knew Jesus, walked with Jesus, worked with Jesus, accepted responsibility for Jesus’s mother at the crucifiction, and met Him again after the resurrection. There were many other first hand witnesses.

Yet, we are called to live by faith, “The just shall live by faith.” Romans 1:17, Galatians 3:11, Hebrews 10:38.

My prayer is that in these last days, many will be called by Christ, will come to Him and receive Him by faith.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Maybe you are being called to come by faith and be one of the “whosoevers” mentioned here.
Jan

18 06 2009
jlue

Chris, I failed to see two of your post before I posted the above post. I do want to answer a couple of things, but I will tell you that I am not an authority on Hammurabi’s Code. There are some people who know much more than I do on the subject. I have been taught that there were three codes of law worth mentioning. The Mosaic, the Justinian, and Hammurabi’s Code are the three. Here is what most Christians believe about them.

Of these three codes, Hammurabi’s proved the strictest and Justinian’s proved the most lenient. Perhaps the main difference in Hammurabi’s Code when compared to Justinian and Mosaic Law, however, was that the latter two specified between having the intentionally doing something and doing something accidentally. This, too, emphasized the free choice humans have regarding sin. Hammurabi, on the other hand, made no such distinction. He used economics to determine a person’s worth rather than recognizing their intrinsic value because they were created in the image of God.

No, I am not trying to be obtuse. I just feel that arguing over points such as whether or not it was incest when cousins married cousins after the flood is useless. I also believe that we are to accept God’s word by faith and that He increases our understanding of what and how things happened as we get to know Him. Arguing doesn’t usually change anyone’s mind. There are many books on Christianity and Judaism that can do a much better job than I on answering criticisms of the Bible.

18 06 2009
Chris

“No, I am not trying to be obtuse. I just feel that arguing over points such as whether or not it was incest when cousins married cousins after the flood is useless.”

We’re not dealing with cousins here. The Bible quite explicitly states that a) Noah’s children were the only ones that were on the ark and b) no one but Noah’s descendants survived the flood. This isn’t a cousin vs. cousin issue. It’s a grandchild vs. no one issue.

“I also believe that we are to accept God’s word by faith and that He increases our understanding of what and how things happened as we get to know Him.”

How is believing the world was created in 6 days, 6000 years ago increase our understanding of how things happened, in the face of overwhelming evidence?

18 06 2009
MirrorMan

jlue, one of the great things about this country is that we are free to believe what we wish; no matter how insane or outrageous it may seem to others. What we are also free from is to have others cram their religious viewpoints down our throats. You believe in a magic sky Grandpa. Good for you. I hope it works out for you.

I don’t, and I get real peeved when you take your faith, which while believed, is not provable, and pronounce it greater than my science, a fact, which can be proven and re-proven around the world. Your connection to the infinite is nor greater or less than my own or anyone else’s, and I find it rude, condescending, and insulting that you would pimp your religion like that.

Your faith is yours.

Keep it that way.

18 06 2009
Chris

What would I do with Jesus?

Shake his hands, tell him he said some great things (that have been said before his time, by the way), but in America, his followers would rather live their lives from the first half of the book.

18 06 2009
MirrorMan

“What would I do with Jesus?”

We would probably have a beer or two and commiserate over why people would rather throw his teachings at each other than try to live by them. Oh, I forgot, you know the bible better than I do.

Got hubris?

18 06 2009
Chris

Jlue, in your understanding of the Bible as a true and accurate History, could you please explain how Koalas, who live only in Australia and eat only Eucalyptus leaves found only in Australia, could have traveled to the Middle East and then back after the flood? Surely a journey like that would take months or even years for a small animal to complete. What would they have eaten along the way? How did Noah provide for them on the ark? Where did he get his Eucalyptus?
An elephant eats up to 400 lbs of food PER DAY. Where on a 300 cubit boat would Noah store enough food for 4 elephants for 40 days?
If God spared Lot because he was the only one in Sodom who wasn’t wicked, why would he offer up his daughters to an angry mob, so a complete stranger wouldn’t be attacked?
Why would an all-loving God kill thousands of innocent women and children just to prove a point to Pharoh?

Perhaps these are some of the questions you should be asking instead of easily discoverable questions like “How does Photosynthesis work?” or “How were planets formed?”

Please understand, I’m not trying to be rude or angry or anything. These are questions that no Creationist seems to be able to answer satisfactorily.

18 06 2009
MirrorMan

Ten questions creationists can’t answer without resorting to the supernatural

1. The Genesis flood: Where did all that water come from? Where did it go?
2. How could the Genesis flood form the Grand Canyon?
3. How do you explain the universally consistent radioactive dating results obtained with different radioactive elements, and the consistent correlation with objects of known age?
4. What scientifically factual information can you supply to support your contention that the universe is only a few thousand years old?
5. How do you explain the astronomical evidence that the universe is billions of years old, without resorting to the preposterous assumption that the speed of light was millions of times faster in the past than it is now?
6. What mathematical proof can you supply, based on the known equations of thermodynamics, that order can not spontaneously arise from disorder?
7. If your claim that thermodynamics will not permit the evolution of complex living structures is true, then how do you explain, without resorting to make-believe special mechanisms that have no basis in thermodynamics, the development of a chick in an egg?
8. If creationism is scientifically valid, then why is it necessary to emphasize that the sectarian religous dogma of the Book of Genesis is the ultimate scientific authority?
9. If you believe that God can override nature to create living things as described in the Book of Genesis, then what reasons do you have, other than your religious beliefs, that God could not have created living things through a process of evolution?
10. The standard creationist explanation for the distribution of fossils in geological strata, with most primitive life forms in the lower strata, and mammals and humans in the upper strata, is that clever mankind was smart enough to climb to higher ground to escape the rising flood waters. How do you explain the fact that thousands of persons drowned in the recent Central America floods, in an area contiguous to higher ground? How do you explain the position of the fossils in the geologic layers, with small fossils below large fossils, which is contrary to hydraulic sorting in which large objects settle deeper than small objects?

18 06 2009
jlue

Chris,
I will address your questions, however, we are leaving for a trip and I will have to get back to you.

In the meantime, I am sure you have been here:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/am/v2/n2/key-age-of-earth
Jan

18 06 2009
Chris

Well, your link does nothing but say, “The Bible says it’s so.”
No where in your link does it account for geological science. It provides anecdotal evidence. Where does it account for my Koala question? Where did all that extra water, which apparently covered all land, go?

18 06 2009
MirrorMan

I looked at it.

What a load of crap.

Self-delusion. It’s not just for breakfast anymore, apparently.

18 06 2009
Chris

Do me a favor, Jlue, don’t link to creationist websites. If you have any SCIENTIFIC evidence, by all means post it.
Linking to sites that say, either believe the all-knowing, all-loving divinely inspired word of God, or believe the sinful god-haters that just want to destroy religion doesn’t help your cause in any way. All it does is reinforce the notion that Creationists are anti-science.

18 06 2009
MirrorMan

And sorely lacking in debate skills and rational thought. Just sayin’.

18 06 2009
vandivort

The heavens declare the glory of God and the skies proclaim the work of His hands. (Psalm 19:1). The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities–His eternal power and divine nature–have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, (the creation) so that men are without excuse. (Romans 1:18-20). Vandivort

18 06 2009
SuperJesus

That’s just silly. The fact that there is a world and we are here is proof of God? Which God do we have definitive proof of prey tell, since they all claim to have created everything?

Really, you’re going to have to do better than quote feeble illogical Bible verses. We expect you to think for yourself around here pal.

19 06 2009
Chris

Great Flood- stolen from Sumerian mythology
Man created from dust- stolen from Egyptian mythology
Dividing the Heavens and Earth from Chaos- stolen from Babylonian mythology
Son of God killed then resurrected in Spring- stolen from Greek mythology
7-headed beast of Revelations- stolen from Babylonian mythology
the Golden Rule- stolen from Confucius

The Bible- THE INERRANT WORD OF GOD AND ABSOLUTE TRUTH!!

19 06 2009
Chris

“The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness”

Who supplied man with all that godlessness and wickedness? Who instilled wickedness into their intelligently-designed creation? An intelligently-designed creation, mind you, that many times requires a man-made solution to correct things like poor eyesight, useless limbs and receding hairlines?
Only truth suppressing I’ve seen comes from Right-wing Creationist.

22 06 2009
Jlue

Chris,
Having been on a short vacation trip, I am sorry that it took me so long to get back to you. I did consider all that you have asked while I was away and I want to make an effort to answer your questions.

Before answering, I would like to address another issue. I am a grandmother who happens to also be a retired school teacher. I would like for you to know that I am not expecting to change your mind with a brilliant argument, but rather I hope that I will be able to change the way you feel about Christ and about Christians.

For some time now, I have noted that there are many who study evolution who are extremely antagonistic toward Christians. Antagonistic to the point that the only conclusion I am able to draw is that these people ‘hope’ the Bible isn’t true and hope that Jesus Christ did not come into the world to save sinners. When one considers that the Bible teaches that Christ came for all men and that He came to seek and to save that which was lost, do you ever wonder why anyone would hope that the Bible is not true? Would you, yourself, be filled with joy if you suddenly realized that Christ is alive and that He wants to give you, and those you love, eternal life?

This is precisely what God wants to do. While it is may be easier to disprove some of the claims of evolution scientifically than it is to prove creation scientifically, there are other ‘proofs’ available in the Bible. The history has been documented, prophecy has been and is being fulfilled, and the life changing results of Christ death, burial and resurrection stand as a testimony that the Bible is much more than a legend or fairy tale.

As for your questions, I can only tell you what I believe. Keep in mind that we are saved by faith in God, not by having all our questions answered in such a way as to “prove” a scientific fact.

We are unable to turn the clock back to the beginning, so what I believe about how God did the things He did is simply an explanation of how it COULD have happened.

On the issue of a rabbit chewing a “cud”, I agree with this author:

It would be intellectually dishonest for someone to claim that a 3500 (or older) year old writing is contradictory because it doesn’t match with a scientific classification invented only about a hundred years ago. Further, if the ancient Hebrews defined ‘cud-chewing” as that process where half digested vegetation was re-chewed by an animal for easier re-digestion ( and that is a very specific and scientific definition), I would say the hare fits here fine.

I am assuming that you have read about how a hare practices cecotropy or “reflection”.

As for this:

We’re not dealing with cousins here. The Bible quite explicitly states that a) Noah’s children were the only ones that were on the ark and b) no one but Noah’s descendants survived the flood. This isn’t a cousin vs. cousin issue. It’s a grandchild vs. no one issue.

Noah’s sons and their wives were on the Ark. The children born to the sons and their wives would be cousins and “yes” it wasn’t unusual for cousins to marry. Even siblings who were what we call ½ brothers or sisters sometimes married.

As to how animals were dispersed after the ark, have you heard of the island of Krakatoa? I have honored your request and the websites found below have nothing to do with creation, however, noting what happened on Krakatoa, may help explain how both plants and animals were dispersed after the flood.

http://www.earlham.edu/~bubbmi/krakatoa.htm

http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/IOTD/view.php?id=3844

http://animals.about.com/cs/habitats1/a/aa092403a.htm

More later if you are interested in hearing from me.

23 06 2009
SuperJesus

I for one don’t feel antagonistic towards Christians in general, but I do frequently feel frustrated by the dogged determination of some to deny clear evidence for evolution and yet ignore the multitude facts that contradict and utter lack of evidence for their Bible stories.

There is no genuine evidence to date disproving evolution and there is literally no scientific evidence that confirms your (or any other) creation story. Biblical ‘proofs’ are of no more value than the ‘proofs’ found in the Koran, the Torah or the holy book of any other religion that you so cavalierly disregard as obvious fiction.

As for the Krakatoa links, are you suggesting that God erupted a volcano under all the animals and threw them all over the planet back into their places in one massive explosion? Obviously that can’t be what you’re suggesting…is it? I don’t follow what you’re suggesting here.

23 06 2009
Chris

re: “Noah’s sons and their wives were on the Ark. The children born to the sons and their wives would be cousins and “yes” it wasn’t unusual for cousins to marry. Even siblings who were what we call ½ brothers or sisters sometimes married.”

That doesn’t explain genetic drift. An entirely real phenomenon that would render all of Noah’s decendants brain-dead cripples in just a few short generations. I’m not talking about cultural biases here. I am talking about the scientifically proven fact that 3 people and their wives could not possibly re-create the human race.

23 06 2009
Chris

I am anxious to hear how an exploding volcano can sustain a koala for a round trip to the Middle East. Unless you are suggesting there was no Koalas on the Ark and they appeared later. In that case, you are supporting evolutionary theories.

23 06 2009
MirrorMan

Jlue:

“For some time now, I have noted that there are many who study evolution who are extremely antagonistic toward Christians. Antagonistic to the point that the only conclusion I am able to draw is that these people ‘hope’ the Bible isn’t true and hope that Jesus Christ did not come into the world to save sinners. When one considers that the Bible teaches that Christ came for all men and that He came to seek and to save that which was lost, do you ever wonder why anyone would hope that the Bible is not true?”

Do you see what you are doing here? You are drawing a conclusion guided by your own expectations rather then relying on fact. “the only conclusion I am able to draw is that these people ‘hope’ the Bible isn’t true” is what you said, but you have failed to cite any supporting evidence other than your own experience which is admittedly biased. You have people like Fred Phelps standing at funerals saying you are going to hell, that god hates fags or Jews or what have you, and you can’t think of any reason people wouldn’t want this book that he, and people like him, are quoting from? Really? You don’t see where the Catholic Church condemns gay people, opposes condom use, refuses to allow women to be lead parishes, and a host of other issues all based on some ancient text rather than common sense, and you can’t for the life of you figure out why some people take offense to that? To being told from an early age that they are a child of god until “Ooops!” they’re not? You really can’t grasp the fact that centuries of scientific progress have proven the truths behind the myths in that big book of yours, the one that’s infallible, the one you and people like you cling to with such hideous and blind obedience and ignorance, you can’t see that some people would have an issue with that? When you use it to justify slavery, discrimination, bigotry, hatred, and even murder?

You can’t understand that? Why anyone would hope it wasn’t true?

I will tell you.

It’s when these devoutly religious types who are absolutely sure that they are on the side of “What God Wants!”™ that they decide that killing an abortion provider is completely acceptable (oh, and that whole Thou Shalt Not Kill thing? Overrated.) or that someone of a certain color, creed, or sexual orientation no longer deserves to be treated with fairness, equality, or hell, just the right to life, that’s when we know that your book is no longer something to believe in, it’s just something you use an excuse for your actions. And that, Ma’am, is pure bullshit.

Hope it isn’t rue? Judging from it’s followers, I sure as hell hope so!

23 06 2009
Chris

re: “Antagonistic to the point that the only conclusion I am able to draw is that these people ‘hope’ the Bible isn’t true and hope that Jesus Christ did not come into the world to save sinners. When one considers that the Bible teaches that Christ came for all men and that He came to seek and to save that which was lost, do you ever wonder why anyone would hope that the Bible is not true?”

I cannot speak for others, but my wife is a Christian that understands the God from the Bible is perfectly capable of creating a universe with evolution as its driving biological force. Its the “Christians” that are incapable of critical thought because they are afraid of being wrong that I have issues with. My antagonism mostly comes from the cognitive dissonance of Creationists. Those that argue against basic high-school biology, or think their knowledge of the Earth is greater than scientists that have dedicated their entire lives to discovering how life works.

23 06 2009
Chris

By the way, this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating
destroys any validity of the Bible being a completely accurate historical document. Artifacts in China date back to 10,000 BC.
Art in France dates before that. Some back to 30,000 BC.

Oh, and in case you’re considering it, carbon dating isn’t a false science. We understand atoms, or there wouldn’t be an atomic bomb. We have experimented, analyzed, broken, studied and manipulated them. So it’s fair to say we have a pretty good understanding of how atoms work. In layman’s terms we can look at the half-life of carbon in an artifact and compare it to something we have today to determine it’s age. Carbon dating is just another scientific tool that Creationists willfully ignore. It’s THAT willful ignorance that I have isssue with.

23 06 2009
MirrorMan

Maybe it was an atomic koala?

23 06 2009
jlue

Chris,
When you say “we”, are you meaning that you are a scientist? Just wondered.

Creationist do not ignore carbon dating. There has been a lot written on the subject and I agree with your wife that God is able to do whatever he chooses and he did put in place the ability for plants and animals to change over time. He did create all that is in existence and it is interesting and exciting to learn about creation. It troubles me that there are those who are trusted to teach our children who do not want the word creation mentioned except to ridicule the idea. It seems ridiculous to me for any man who lives such a tiny length of time in light of eternity, or even in light of how old scientist believe the earth to be, to be so bold as to believe they are able to say that there is no creator or designer.

As for time, we do not know how long God hovered over the face of the waters. We do not know how long man lived before sin entered the picture. There are many things we do not know, but I do know that God’s word is true. Finite man will not be able to fully explain or fully comprehend our infinite God.

As for the island of Krakatoa I was only pointing out that wildlife returned to the island by surprising methods and that after all life had been wiped off the island, it now has many plants and animal species.

As for how the animals got on the ark, the Bible says that the animals came to Noah. We do not know the configuration of the continents at that time.

You find the views of many creationist troubling. Personally I find many things very troubling when I read what today’s evolutionist are saying. It seems to be more of a political battle that is raging than a quest for knowledge.

24 06 2009
MirrorMan

jlue;

“When you say “we”, are you meaning that you are a scientist? Just wondered.”
And I suppose you are? Dismissing a view based on science because the person expressing it is not a scientist is a lot like saying you can’t oppose prejudice because you are not oppressed.
“Creationist do not ignore carbon dating.”

I call bullshit. Carbon 14 Dating has a range of up to 60,000 years. Creationists say the Earth is no more than 10,000 years old, but of course, facts don’t seem to get in the way for you lot, do they?
“As for how the animals got on the ark, the Bible says that the animals came to Noah. We do not know the configuration of the continents at that time.”
Does that mean you believe in Continental Drift? And that must mean it just suddenly slowed to a crawl recently, because otherwise the movement would be measured in feet instead of inches.
“You find the views of many creationist troubling. Personally I find many things very troubling when I read what today’s evolutionist are saying. It seems to be more of a political battle that is raging than a quest for knowledge.”
When you bring your blind faith into a classroom and prop it up as science and saying that it is true, without a single shred of provable evidence to back it up, yeah, it becomes a battle. You don’t have science; you have a magic being that cannot be proven despite THOUSANDS of years of evidence gathering. How is that going for you, by the way?

24 06 2009
Chris

re: “It seems ridiculous to me for any man who lives such a tiny length of time in light of eternity, or even in light of how old scientist believe the earth to be, to be so bold as to believe they are able to say that there is no creator or designer.”

I don’t think any scientist will ever say there is definitely no creator. What they say is there is no evidence of such, therefore, to entertain the idea is folly. You will also find that those same scientists will say, “Let’s look into the idea of a creator” if such evidence existed.

re: “When you say “we”, are you meaning that you are a scientist? Just wondered.”

I’m no scientist, but I’ve done enough research/studies at the college level in atomic structures that I can say “we understand atoms.” I’m a closet physicist.

24 06 2009
Chris

” We do not know the configuration of the continents at that time.”

Yes we do. The Carthaginians were excellent sailors and travelers as early as 800 BC. Some historians believe they may have even been able to travel to the new world. The Chinese had language and writing as early as 1500 BC, maybe even earlier.
Sorry, there is no evidence of major continental shifts over the past 6000 years.

24 06 2009
Chris

“It seems to be more of a political battle that is raging than a quest for knowledge.”

The quest for knowledge concerning evolution has been raging for 150 years. The political battle comes from people redefining science according to the Bible.
By all means, if you have scientific evidence of the Creation of the Earth within the last 10,000 years, bring it forward. All I see is references to the Bible. No evidence other than anecdotal. Bring forward the peer-reviewed, testable, scientific evidence. I beg you.
We have cave paintings dating back 30K years, we have light that has traveled billions of years to reach our eyes, light that shows up to the millisecond before the big bang. We have animals that have never seen human beings being discovered on a daily basis. How can Adam shepherd a flock he’s never seen?
We have whale fossils that clearly demonstrate a transition from land to sea. We have wisdom teeth and and appendix. We have fish that walk on the ocean floor and fish that breath air. We have creatures that evolve generation to generation in the Galapagos.
The evidence is overwhelming if you’d just put down the Bible and open a textbook. Stop searching websites and open a Physics book that explains the doppler effect.
I don’t profess to believe there is absolutely, definitely no God. What I believe is that, so far, there is no scientific evidence to say there is a God. By that rationale, I cannot simply say, “We don’t know everything, so there must be a supernatural explanation” and be satisfied.

24 06 2009
Chris

re: “As for how the animals got on the ark, the Bible says that the animals came to Noah. We do not know the configuration of the continents at that time.”

I’m just asking you to think critically here. How would a pair of koalas, found only on Australia with no historic evidence of having lived anywhere else, have traveled over 5000 miles over land AND ocean, when their only diet consists of Eucalyptus leaves found only in Australia?
Why would an all-knowing omnipotent God tell mankind the Moon is a light, when we know beyond all doubt that it merely reflects the sun?

Either a) the Bible is not literally or historically accurate
b) Bronze-aged, nomadic, superstitious sheep herders aren’t the best source of history
or c) God doesn’t exist as recorded in the Bible

30 06 2009
jlue

Chris,
The moon reflects light and produces light on the earth. I suppose it would be hard for some to understand why in the Bible God is said to have created the lesser light instead of saying that the lesser light is reflected light and the greater light is “true light”, but that just doesn’t present a problem for me because the moonlight does light the earth. I am not sure how it would read in Hebrew. The Bible also says, “And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,” and they do this quite well. To me the miraculous thing is that there is light and that the light shines on this earth in just the right way and amount to provide for life. I think it is very ingenious to have the moon light the earth with light reflected from the sun.

I appreciate your question of the Koalas. I also understand how that is troubling for some people. My only answer to that would be that we do not have to know details if we accept the Word of God. If God could hang the planets, stars, and heavenly bodies in space, placing the Koala bear in Australia would be quite easy. For those who want to know how, I would have to say there is no definite way to know. We do that that when God planted a garden eastward in Eden, the animals were all there and provided for. They were at some point dispersed around the globe. Not just the koala, but innumerable species. Men lived much longer in the beginning. The earth was at first watered by a mist rather than rainfall. There are other things that we cannot explain besides how the animals were placed on the ark and how they were later dispersed. The Bible gives us a brief or ‘bottom line’ explanation of the things that happened in the beginning. There are evidences of some of these things that God said happened, but others must be accepted by faith. I do not know if as the ark rose on the waters animals were rescued who were not there the day the ark was boarded. If the rain began at other locations rather than where the ark was, I can imagine wildlife continuing to go to higher ground until they were at the place where the ark was being boarded. I can think of several ways this could have happened, but I think we will only know for sure when we are translated from this life to the next.

Another feat that only God can accomplish is the changing of the heart of man. The best way for me to know the Bible is true is by the witness of the Spirit of God in my own life. I know what He did for me personally. When God drew me to Himself, I know that it was not my own doing. When he forgave me, I know that there was a change in my heart and in my life. I have seen others changed even more dramatically than I.

Mirrorman asked, “Why would anyone want to believe the Bible?” Here are a few reasons that one should hope the Bible is true. The one I think is most important is first:

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.

Another is:

Psalm 37:4 says “Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.”

and

Philippians 4:19 “But my God shall supply all your need according to his riches in glory by Christ Jesus”.

John 14:1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Chris and Mirrorman, may God give you saving faith is my prayer for you.

1 07 2009
SuperJesus

“If God could hang the planets, stars, and heavenly bodies in space, placing the Koala bear in Australia would be quite easy. For those who want to know how, I would have to say there is no definite way to know.”

Um, yeah…right. You really are quite hopeless.

As for “Another feat that only God can accomplish is the changing of the heart of man” he’s certainly proven quite inept in that department with me. So much for all that omnipotence then.

I think I hear your therapist calling. You had better run along now.

2 07 2009
Jlue

As for “Another feat that only God can accomplish is the changing of the heart of man” he’s certainly proven quite inept in that department with me. So much for all that omnipotence then.

I cannot speak for anyone except myself, but my experience has been, and I think scripture teaches that, it is when we surrender our hearts to Christ in repentance and faith that the heart of man is made soft and man’s life changes. Christ told Nicodemas, “Ye must be born again.” This new birth takes place only when we humble ourselves and acknowledge our sin and our need for Christ. For me, it this was when I realized that my way was not the right way and I chose to accept and follow Christ way. I was young and had lived a clean life, but I was depending on my own righteousness (when in truth I had none). Only when I saw that I was sinful and that I needed the righteousness of Christ, did my life change.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me

I am not an exception, because God is not a respecter of persons.

Acts 10:34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

If we meet His conditions, He will not turn us away.

John 6:37 … and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

It always comes down to “whosoever WILL”.

2 07 2009
MirrorMan Δ

So, instead of offering up any proof of “Divine Creation” or “Intelligent Design”, instead of answering any of the questions put to you, your final response is to proselytize to us? Are you serious? This is all you got? You can’t argue the facts, so you resort to preaching at us because you think if just believed in magic, it would all make sense? I believe the applicable term here is ‘Pathetic’. And the truly sad part here is that you are serious. I have no idea what the color of the sky is in your little world, but I do have one piece of advice for you.

Redecorate.

2 07 2009
jlue

Mirrorman,
I have not been quick to point out the obvious, but when I first appeared here, I asked questions and to date none of them have been answered. I did answer some of your questions. Maybe not to your satisfaction, but answer I did. NONE of my questions have been answered. You call it pathetic. I call it not having an answer.
Jan

2 07 2009
MirrorMan Δ

Then I suggest you crack open a science textbook instead of a bible. I can guarantee you will find the answers there. You won’t agree with them, of course, because your faith tells you what happened instead of scientific observation and demonstrable fact. You know what you know, and the facts won’t dissuade you in the least. What is that phrase? There are none so blind as those who will not see?

2 07 2009
jlue

If you will give me the name of a textbook that tells how matter began and from where it came, I will read that book. If you give me the textbook that explains how life was supported prior to photosynthesis, I will be more than glad to read it. Ditto to all the questions asked above. I am very familiar with what science books teach and the questions I asked are not answered other than to say the answer are not known. Most readers would like to have these answers, so you are doing everyone a big favor when you give the text name and author.

2 07 2009
jlue

Make that ‘answers’ rather than answer in the next to last line above.

2 07 2009
MirrorMan Δ

We already said that to answer to that question is not yet known. Your choice of instantly ascribing it to a supernatural being shows a lack of intellectual curiosity and imagination as well as a clear disregard for the many creation myths that exist in the world which is proven by your unwillingness to entertain any position held by any other religion other than your own. You choose to believe that something other than a scientific rationale is at the core of the universe. Sorry, but I am not buying it, so stop trying to sell me on it. If you can’t, or won’t, open your eyes to what is in front of you, I sure as hell am not going out of my way to teach you.

3 07 2009
jlue

What makes you think I “ascribed instantly” to anything. We really do not know that much about each other to make judgements concerning how we came to where we are. I wasn’t asking you to teach me, I was telling you I have read science books and the answers to the questions I asked are not there.

3 07 2009
SuperJesus

Jan, I know this isn’t going to persuade you in any way but understand that science is about separating what is known from what is not known and then working to understand it. Religion, on the other hand, is about looking vaguely at what isn’t known and then staunchly pretending it already knows the answer…that is was magic!

Science is happy, even thrilled, to admit what isn’t known because that’s where scientists can then really do their leading edge research and push the boundaries of our knowledge. Religion (of all kinds) rather prefers that its followers defer to a story about some magic man making everything and to then stop thinking so much.

Scientists aren’t upset when you point out what isn’t known, that’s the whole point of the endeavor of learning. It is, however, ironic because every claim that religion asserts knowledge of (under the escape clause of “faith”) is utterly without evidence, logic, or any other merit…yet you’ll ding on Science all day because of the unknowns that still lay beyond the boundaries of our current knowledge. How hypocritical.

I doubt religion brought you that computer you’re reading this on, or any other technical, medical, or modern convenience you take for granted today, and still you insist on clinging to it like a long tattered blankey from your childhood.

Hate us here if you like, but we’re just trying to help you move beyond the limits of superstition and into the limitless potential that is reality. And spare us your prayers, pray that you wake up from the delusions that enslave your mind.

3 07 2009
jlue

I am trying to determine how you could possibly believe that I hate anyone here from what I have written. Certainly, I do not. In fact, I hope that you believe me when I tell you that I care about you and I want to understand you and I also would like to discuss things without anger or mistrust.

I really do understand what you are stating. I just do not see it the same way. In fact, before I found your site, I wrote about Christianity and science and my take on both.

Please be clear on this one statement:

I am not saying science is bad or should be abandoned!

Please read this paragraph which you will find within the posting first, and then go to the site.

While it may be said that those believing in science do have a great hope for a better life brought about by giving up dependence on a higher power and focusing on solutions to the problems of mankind, the reality is that if one problem is solved, several other even larger problems always take the place of the original. Antibiotics come to mind as an example of solving one problem and creating others.

When I visit nursing homes or hospice centers, I realize that while medical science has enabled us to have a longer life expectancy or quantity of life, the quality is usually just not there.

While I realize a lot of progress has been made in the field of medicine, when I watched my father die from a disease that could have been cured a few years ago, but no longer is cured easily due to the antibiotics becoming ineffective, I have to say that whenever science makes one step forward, there are sometimes two steps backward.

When I stood outside and looked at the moon back in the sixties while men were there, I thought that the promises science books made then just might come true. As you know, we have not been back there and cannot list a great deal of benefits gained from the trip.

I think amazing progress has been made in electronics, but as I watch my daughter and her children suffer because my son-in-law has become addicted to a computer game and does not provide for them, I have to think that even electronics have not given us a trouble free world.

Don’t think I am saying science is not a useful field of study. I believe that it is both a useful and helpful study. But, I know that science will never solve the problems sin and death have produced.

Anyway, here is the address:

http://jlue.wordpress.com/2009/06/12/1272/

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